The Createur Podcast

From Classroom to Real Estate: Tyler Lingle's Entrepreneurial Journey

• McGraw School of Business • Season 2 • Episode 2

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Ever wondered how a history teacher could transform into a thriving real estate entrepreneur? Tyler Lingle, co-founder of Roots Realty Co., reveals his incredible journey, sharing the pivotal moments that led him from the classroom to the competitive world of real estate. Tyler discusses the challenges faced during COVID-19 and how his father's entrepreneurial spirit motivated him to pivot his career. This episode is packed with insights on how Tyler’s educational background and strong network enabled a swift and successful transition, along with his ambitious goal of helping 10,000 people enter the real estate industry.

Discover the importance of relationships and faith in building a sustainable real estate business. Tyler and I delve into the benefits and challenges of a slow-growth investment model, emphasizing the value of trust, stewardship, and integrity. By adopting a steady pace of property acquisition, Tyler ensures each property is well-managed and profitable. This chapter also sheds light on how integrating faith into business practices can lead to stronger connections and a more meaningful professional journey.

Get ready to gain practical advice on real estate investing straight from a seasoned expert. Tyler shares his top tips and strategies, including leveraging resources like BiggerPockets.com and the importance of finding an investor-friendly agent. We discuss crucial metrics such as cash on cash return and total ROI, along with the significance of appreciation, tenant equity gains, tax benefits, and inflation hedging. Tyler also underscores the importance of daily habits, relationship-building, and balancing physical health and spirituality for long-term success. Plus, learn how to connect with Tyler, and hear about exciting opportunities at the Creator Conference and Pitch Competition. Don't miss this episode brimming with valuable insights and inspiring stories!

Links to Tyler Lingle: 

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tyler-lingle/

https://www.instagram.com/tyler_lingle?igsh=MmEzeXZiNnN5N3ht

To learn more about other entrepreneurship opportunities and the McGraw School of Business’s very own Createur Conference and Pitch Competition, go to Createur.Olivet.edu.


Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Creator Podcast. Join us as we dive deep into conversations with visionaries, innovators and doers.

Speaker 2:

Whether you're building your brand, launching your next big project or simply seeking inspiration, this is the space where ideas come to life.

Speaker 1:

I'm Spencer James.

Speaker 2:

And I'm Carly Bird when faith and business meet this is the Creator Podcast faith and business meet.

Speaker 2:

This is the Creator Podcast. Hello everyone, this week I am so excited to be joined by someone who has proven time and time again that it's never too late to switch your career path Tyler Lingle. Tyler is the co-founder of Roots Realty Co. Roots Realty is a team of agents that helps homeowners and investors plant roots by building wealth through real estate. Tyler's background is in urban education, where he was a history teacher for four years prior to being a real estate agent. Tyler also invests in real estate himself, in multifamily and short-term rentals. Tyler, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited. As you can see, I am co-hostless this week. Spencer's actually on vacation, but we're here and I am super excited for our interview today.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me, Carly.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, definitely so, tyler. As I was looking over your bio and you know kind of taking my notes there I couldn't help but notice and before we dive into that nitty gritty of scaling a portfolio, I think that it would be great if you could just share a little bit more about your journey and how you went from being a teacher to the founder of Roots Realty. What was that transition like for you?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's definitely been at breakneck speed. So it's only been three years since I was in the classroom and it was a virtual classroom. When I switched it was in the middle of COVID. That kind of pushed me over the edge because the bureaucracy of education and public education was a little bit stifling. I was actually getting kind of in trouble for incentivizing students with things like games and prizes and taking them outside. I actually got punished and I was kind of just disillusioned with COVID. And then I was like you know what? I think it's time for an entrepreneurial change and my dad's been on this podcast, scott Lingle, and he has started in multiple businesses, so I think he kind of put the fire under my butt to get into entrepreneurship and I think real estate was the lane that seemed the most obvious. I owned my own home. I was kind of fixing it up to hopefully sell it for a profit and I was really like I was more into that than my teaching job. So I was like what if I could maybe teach real estate and kind of switch into this and that shoe fit? I have had amazing mentors that have helped me along the way and so the change has gone relatively quickly.

Speaker 1:

I had kind of a quick start. I would say I didn't struggle to get clients Like some agents. They say oh, it took three years to build a business. Year three is the golden year. Well, I would say year one was kind of the golden year for me. I think being a teacher and having a pretty big network helped a lot. But I think also kind of taking an educational approach, people just trusted me a lot more than a salesperson. So I started the team two years in and now the team is one year, a little over one years old. We have six agents on the team and we're not our own brokerage yet. Becoming a brokerage is a bigger step. I think we're in discussions, even as recent as today, about what that could look like. So we definitely hope to get to that platform in the near future. So it's been a fun ride so far, very blessed.

Speaker 2:

That's so exciting. I think it's incredibly inspiring because many of us, no matter where we're at in our life's journey, we have this idea that we need to have it all figured out and that we have this. You know, pick one career path, mindset, stick to it when in reality, you are an excellent example of someone who's proved that that's not the case and you know it really doesn't matter where you're at in that process. You can always make that change. So I love hearing that you know, tyler. Another concept, as we kind of dive into our topic today, is that, no matter what field of business you go into, you really need to have some goals and a strategic plan to follow. Do you think you could share some of your long-term goals for scaling at Roots Realty?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, absolutely Roots. We feel like we built it for our community. Yeah, we want to make money and provide for our families, but I really am trying to lead value first, so what's in it for the people we serve first? I just believe that's the cool thing about entrepreneurship it aligns so well with faith. Anyways, I think our long-term goal is I would like to help 10,000 people break into real estate, and by that I mean buy your first property, launch into your first investment, get educated and meetups we host meetups in the city help 10,000 people I think I've probably helped 100 people so far break into real estate, at least tangentially, helping them get started type of thing. I've not physically helped that many people, but 10,000 people would be huge. Them get started type of thing. I've not physically helped that many people, but 10,000 people would be huge. I think it's realistic. I think we can. Of course, I need to have other agents on our team. I need to have other people building it with me, scaling the organization.

Speaker 1:

We would love to be within the top 10 of real estate firms in Indianapolis. There's some big hitters like Keller Williams, exp, even my brokerage, which is at properties, which is pretty big in Chicago land area as well, if Roots broke off right now. Right now we're at 40 million in sales for this year. That's our target. The biggest brokerage is 3.9 billion. We're not quite in the realm of the biggest yet, but if we were in that top 10, I think that would indicate we're making a massive impact in the city and I'm really ambitious about that. I think it's possible. So we're trying to create a home for agents that want to lead values first, serve their clients, investment mindset, create a home for them to join our brokerage. It's not even a brokerage yet, so I mean we're really early, but I think we're on track to get there. So, yeah, that's what we love to do.

Speaker 2:

So exciting. I love your drive and ambition. Do you think to go along with that topic? How have you found? Because you have some very lofty goals there? How do you balance short-term gains with long-term sustainability when you're making those decisions?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think that is tricky. I think I kind of live in the long-term. If you look at, like Myers-Briggs or whatever or any of those personality tests, I'm really bad at detail, I'm really horrible at detail orientation, so like things like measurement of the homes, it's like it's like scratching a nail on a window or something. I just hate doing that little work so I have to have other people help me and I tend to be at more the high level. But anyways, I would say, with regards to short-term gains, as long as sustainability, we've been very sustainable. We're at six agents. I think we could be at 20 if we really had tried to recruit.

Speaker 1:

We're not really trying to recruit and we haven't talked about my investments with properties. I've been at 12 units. I just sold a four-unit property, so now we're at eight units across four properties or five properties. I should say that's been slow growth. One to two properties a year has felt for me sustainable and I can get my bearings and make sure it's rented, it's cash flowing, I understand the return I'm getting and I have cash in place. If something goes wrong and if I was buying five properties in a year which I could, I could leverage, I could go raise capital. I've not done too much of that, however. I'm confident I can figure it out. It hasn't sat well with me.

Speaker 1:

So kind of a slow growth model has seemed to work for us and I think if each year we're hitting our target goals across a decade we're going to. It's going to be unimaginable how much we can do if there's like consistent growth monthly, yearly. And so I think and to be honest, I think that is trusting God's plan more than our plan. I think that I feel very strongly that if we put relationship first and trust in him, that he's outlining your steps, it's much better than if I tried to get some mountaintop really quick and become that 30 under 30.

Speaker 1:

I'm 29 and there's pressure. It's not going to happen and it's not about you, tyler, it's not really about your success. It truly is about the people we want to help and the residents and tenants I serve. And ever since I've adopted that mindset, I have to say things have genuinely been better. I mean, there has been more peace. My head hits the pillow in a much more peaceful realm, and that hasn't always been the case. I've definitely been way more stressed when I was hyper fast growing in 2022, which that's kind of when I had a big year.

Speaker 2:

Wow, yeah, that's a great point. You know, I think I'm also curious. I love your faith-driven mindset as you're leading your company. Do you think you could share a little off more than you can chew? Sometimes when it's tempting and you know, sometimes you want to go that extra mile, but you have to also be mindful of the plan that God has for you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think I think we try to always point back to I keep saying it but giving value. I think we believe that's our best marketing tool. It's not emails, it's not social media, it's the actual, tangible. When I talked to Tyler or I talked to Max on our team, I had more understanding of what the steps I needed to take. I had more trust in the path I'm on in real estate, and real estate is an extremely daunting industry. It's scary to buy your own house. It's scary to go into an investment property. We're talking about the highest dollar amount of purchase people make usually. So we try to really position ourselves to be trusted guides and I feel like that's stewardship. I feel like people should be stewarding their money and their house and towards a greater purpose. So I feel like there's a stewardship mindset. Eye integrity is our goal. Have I had a transaction where I felt bad? Maybe what they purchased? Yes, I I've had. I had one where it it fell back hard on me and they didn't use me when they sold it and they sold it like months or years within a short amount of time later and I remember thinking the day that I learned it was on the market with someone else. I was like I never want to do that again. I may have had a paycheck, but it was like an empty paycheck. You know what I mean, and I've now told that story to some people on the team. So I think I'd rather always like sacrifice the paycheck for the relationship, not the relationship for the paycheck. And I will say in the realty industry it's pretty notorious for being transactional and transactionalizing relationships. You spend three months with a realtor, usually searching for a home or selling your home, and if there wasn't a clear evidence that you actually cared about their situation, checked in on them after the fact. Down the line months, down the line, years down the line. You're not going to keep that business and retain that business. You're not going to create a referral-driven business. So I think there's similarities in the investment realm too, with how you treat tenants and contractors and stuff like that. So I think those are some of the ways I think about it.

Speaker 1:

I don't think we're necessarily having a Bible study in our team meetings, although that might be a good idea. Having a Bible study in our team meetings, although that might be a good idea, we're much more implicit versus explicit, and there is a team member on our team. He said, since joining the team, both of us founders are Christian, both went to Christian colleges and that's a big part of our journey. He, I don't think, knew the Lord.

Speaker 1:

I don't know if he definitely wasn't going to church or reading the Bible and he decided to do that and I never explicitly was like hey, hey, bud, you know, this is part of the package Get to read and open up to Genesis. He just saw what we were doing and how much, quite frankly, how much success we were having, not just the real estate side of our lives, but also our family's lives. Like all glory to God. By the way, I mean I'm very broken, but like, luckily, because of, you know, my relationship with Jesus Christ, my marriage is really strong. I've had a child and, you know, I feel like we're in a pretty good spot and I think he saw that he's single and maybe didn't have some of those habits and lifestyles in place and he was like I just want that.

Speaker 2:

And he's like you're saying it's your faith, that's the backbone of that. I want that and so, yeah, I mean there is a small discipleship component. I hope it becomes a bigger component, but I truly feel that's not me. It's definitely in God's want to force a Christianity on someone you know. You get excited, you're like, oh man, I know that this person that's coming to me, they don't really, you know, have a concept of faith. They don't know Jesus, and I want, you know them to be a part of this community. So bad, but sometimes, you know, it really is just about leaving those seeds, planting a little bit at a time, and obviously you've done that, even just leading an example in the workplace. So that's very exciting. You know. I think another piece that I definitely want to touch on, now that we're talking about how important relationships really are in the workplace as well and having this cohesive team that works together, can you talk a little bit more about some of the strategies you use for maintaining that strong work ethic and that camaraderie with your team?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm definitely learning a lot here. I wouldn't say when I started a team I was the best leader. I think I had a lot to learn. I think I was a really good producer and individual contributor, which was kind of the foundation of my success in real estate. And then I think when I became a team leader, I struggled a little bit. We lost two agents pretty quickly that we wanted to be long-term agents. When I reflected, I was like I just wasn't the leader I needed to be. They had to find that leadership somewhere else, and so I think I've had to learn the hard way.

Speaker 1:

But I think what I'm finding is it's not about you. I think it's about like what is their vision for their lives? Where do they want to go? And their business as an agent won't look like mine. So I think trying to be a little bit of a sounding board and a mirror for them is how I approach some of those one-on-ones.

Speaker 1:

I also think that I have to choose very carefully how I handle every situation, every transaction side, conversations with employees. I think I used to be a little more like whatever. If it's not like a public statement or something, it doesn't matter that much. Now I'm like no people are going to talk and your reputation, kind of, is everything. In the real estate industry in particular, people talk and trying to leave a trace of only good things and do I mess up? Yeah, I mess up every day. Every day, I probably do something stupid, selfish or careless and I think that comes down to just reflecting quite a bit. I try to keep 25% of my day open for journaling, reflection, listening to prayer, and I think that I think someone told me, like leadership is built in solitude. I think that has a lot of merit and you can't be a leader if you're constantly in the noise and you have commanding orders and receiving orders all day. You have to have margin, have to have solitude, and I've tried to create space for that a lot this past, really year.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's a great piece of advice for some of these aspiring entrepreneurs we have listening to our show and just how important that is and having that time for yourself as well. Another piece I kind of want to go back. You've touched on some great points here. I think you know it's super important. You mentioned a little bit earlier about having a team that you know you're not going to have all the skills required to lead the business and you need to rely on certain individuals who do have the expertise that you may not have. You know, I have a feeling I'm not the only one out there who can relate to that. But as far as the financial aspect goes, I know we have a lot of listeners out there that have a lot of questions and that's not exactly their strong suit. So I'm very curious if you could dive in a little bit about how you typically finance your acquisitions of new properties, because we have quite a few people listening to this show that are interested in real estate.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah. I think that's the number one reason people don't get into real estate as well the financial constraints which is granted. I mean that's super. That's a big hurdle for people.

Speaker 1:

I think I'll speak to the way I started, which was I started my first home um, you know, bought it with a owner occupant loan, which is much more friendly than a um. An investment loan starts at 20% Oftentimes in this environment, 25%. With an owner occupant loan, you can go as low as 3% and so started with an owner-occupant loan at a house in 2018. It was just over $100,000 and put a lot of sweat equity into it. We painted it. We definitely hired some contractors to do some work I wasn't comfortable with too. We redid the bathroom and then just kind of sat on it for three years and I rented out the rooms to roommates. There was actually a back studio. That was one of the reasons I bought it. It had this like shell of a, almost like a garage, but we transformed that um into a um a unit, and that was a loan for my parents.

Speaker 1:

I did not have the money to build out. It was a $20,000, um project. I did not have the money. So I I will say like I, I, friends and family, money can be huge and approach that saying like hey, you know, do you want to make a return on your money? Here's what this could look like. Or even they might've had the idea. I think I was really green when I started. This was when I was like 23. So they might've had that idea. So I mean I definitely had that kind of heritage in the family. But then that property did do really well. I sold that and then, instead of buying one super nice place, I actually bought a pretty mediocre place and then bought two investment properties with the proceeds.

Speaker 1:

And then from there on, when I started to get into the realty business, my income grew pretty quickly through just trying to be a good agent, compared to when I was a teacher, and instead of our lifestyle ramping up as quickly as maybe it could have, we definitely put a lot of that into real estate. And the way I thought about that is like almost like dollar cost averaging stock market. I would set aside money in a main account and then, once it hit 25,000, or even less than that, 10,000, but maybe I could have a partner I would start to look at properties. So that's how we bought a single family home for 100. One we bought for 80,000. One we bought for $80,000. One we bought then for $165,000. And those were funded through partnership type models. So I'm a huge fan of starting with a partnership, especially if you can start with someone that is more experienced than you or if someone has capital that you don't have and you can provide the sweat equity, just run things down and go to the property a lot and make sure things are happening. So I was a huge proponent of partnerships.

Speaker 1:

Of my first six deals, I think four of them were partnerships. Actually, I mean, if you include debt, I mean five of them were really partnerships, which I can kind of get into what that looks like. But some of those were debt and kind of get into what that looks like, but some of those were debt. I'll just say it. The debt was my parents. I mean I still have debt, I'm paying them and they like the return they're getting. You know what I mean. So it's part of their investing strategy. And then equity was, I think three of them 50-50.

Speaker 1:

I have a partner named Corey Paul who's a travel nurse. He was making a lot of money during COVID and had too much money in a checking account and he's like I have too much money. You have the desire to go find good deals and produce a return. Let's marry the two and go 50-50. He provided most of the down payment to a four-unit property. I guess I spit off a lot of information there, but I think the big key points are maybe start with your primary residence, make that an investment house, hack it, maybe buy a duplex and then, number two, leverage partnerships and if you know people in your network, especially family and friends, that have a lot of money and maybe aren't investing it or diversifying into real estate, approach them and be a value add to them and help them invest that money. That's how I've approached it and I've seen numerous others do it that way and it works.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I appreciate you breaking that down. I know that a lot of our listeners have talked about you know how do you do it, how do you even begin, so it's really good to you know talk about the partnerships and the relationships that you need to make in the beginning. Sometimes, especially I know that one of the biggest constraints for you know we've got a lot of college students out here is the Capitol capital, and you know finding ways to work through some of these challenges in the early stages and end up where you are now. So I really appreciate you diving pretty deep into that concept. I know that's a big key component that a lot of our listeners needed to hear today, and you know to go along just one step further even with that. I know that, of course, there are many financial metrics that you can look at when you're in this business, but what are some that you could break down? Just a few key ones maybe for some of our listeners today that have really helped you out, especially in the early stages.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think knowing the numbers is what gives you confidence. If you don't know the numbers, you're not going to be confident. You're certainly not going to raise money or even equity partners if you don't know the numbers like the back of your hand. I think to get started there, biggerpocketscom is the best place. Biggerpocketscom is like a social network and resource hub for real estate investors. A lot of what I do, the books they make and the forums, and they have an online calculator on how to calculate how much you're going to cash flow. So I mean you really got to link up with bigger pockets. I would say our company's trying to do that in a way too. So people want a real estate agent, yet they need really education. So we're trying to create an agency for real estate investors. So we have our own spreadsheets. We have maps of investment, an investment map for Indianapolis, so we're mostly just Indianapolis. But I'd say, finding an investor-friendly agent. I mean you're going to probably use an agent when you buy your first deal. I'm more than likely to be on the market unless you have a crazy upmarket connection. So find someone that has investment properties to be your agent.

Speaker 1:

But to answer your question, I would say that the most important metrics number one is going to be your cash on cash return. So cash on cash return means how much cash did it take to start the deal? Maybe the down payment was $50,000 and then closing costs were $5,000. So $55,000. And then how much cash are you making that first year? So if I calculate my rents and I subtract my mortgage taxes, insurance, maintenance management, what is left over each month? So maybe that's only $100. That's pretty realistic. Right now it might not even be $100. Most of these are negative right now with the interest rates, so it's $100. So $100 times 12 months it's $1,200 divided by $55,000. I don't know what that cash-on-cash return is, but you could calculate that. Traditionally people want an 8% cash on cash return. That is really challenging right now. You usually have to buy something in cash to actually get there because the mortgage is so high. But right now, honestly, a positive cash on cash return is actually really what we tell people to shoot for.

Speaker 1:

Do you make money? The first year is kind of a big deal in cash flow. But then the other thing is the total. Roi is the second metric which is more like, if I look at let's just I usually say the five-year play. So if I look at how much cash I invested and then in five years, how much total value did I produce? That's going to include cashflow. That's going to include tenants paying down your mortgage, so your equity gain through paying down the mortgage, and then that's going to include appreciation. But, lastly, that's also going to include tax benefits and inflation hedging, which inflation hedging is naturally a little more abstract. But you look at, if I sold that property in five years and let's say it appreciated $100,000, well, that's obviously your total ROI. Your cashflow could have been very low, but your total ROI return on investment could be incredibly high.

Speaker 1:

And so people sometimes wonder how do investors make money in New York City when these things cost so much? The mortgage is here, the rent's here Well, they're doing this with the appreciation. They know Manhattan real estate is going to go up. It's quite obvious that there's limited space and everyone wants to live there and buy there. Same thing for a place like Indianapolis. We see really good appreciation Right now. Things are appreciating over 5% a year here right now in the current market, even this year. So I mean that's already going to be rivaling the stock market on appreciation alone. So I think real estate is a great investment because of that alone.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. Yeah, thanks for breaking down how important the return on investment is. Again, that's something that even we tell our students a lot here in the program. That's one of the questions that we really work on as they're starting their own business as well, so very important to hear that concept. You know, I think, just as we're kind of heading towards the end here, I'd love to hear some of the key lessons overall that you've learned just from your previous experiences in this business. You've shared many great tips, but if you could leave our listeners with maybe a couple of key lessons.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I mean I would say that you know most agents when they start in the business they well the attrition rate's 80% in two years. I mean most don't make it. But of the ones that make it it's usually slow growth and they say by 10 years you're gonna make it. I think if there's any reason I've attained success within three years it's daily habits. I mean I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that. I mean my physical habits working out, eating right, I would say, spirituality that helps with the mindfulness realm praying daily, journaling daily I mean I do those before I open my email and that's just something that I've done now for at least three years. So I mean that's been important because that grounds me and that's what I put the success on the backs of that, to be honest. But then, secondly, I'm extremely relationally motivated. I mean if people look at my calendar they'd be shocked.

Speaker 1:

I don't have long blocks of time where I'm crunching numbers, digging through properties. I have very long blocks of time of meeting with people. I just came off meeting three appointments and they were all just like a lunch, you know, a coffee meeting and a networking group with like 25 other real estate people and I was just having conversations the whole time filling up my page you know, my page in my journal with, like, what other people are worrying, are needing, what they're thinking about lessons learned the immediate ROI doesn't seem obvious. It's not like I walked away with a check for, like you made this much from attending that networking meeting. But that's what I do, so I try to reserve my time for, I guess, development.

Speaker 1:

Health development is incredibly important to me. I would say it's over 50% of the time I spend, and when I look at other agents, they're showing homes, they're um, they're writing offers and that's good and dandy. I have to do that as well, but I luckily now, you know, I'm at a point where we're kind of at the point where I can. I can actually have other people doing that for me a lot of times because I've paid such a close attention to the development side. So I think, um, yeah, just knowing the order of priorities and putting that relationship with God first, and then your relationship maybe with yourself, and then your relationship with yourself and that includes health, fitness and your mental health as well Kind of the order of my priorities at least and then work obligations come after that.

Speaker 2:

To be honest with you, Tyler, this has been such a great conversation today. I know that I personally feel like I've gained so much from today, but I do, of course, have one final question, and I think you probably know where this is going. It's time for your quirky question. So, with that being said, this one's a little interesting today. So if you could design your ultimate dream house, what are some of the features that it would have in it?

Speaker 1:

Man, I'm a sucker for a, like outdoor patio space so I care almost more about that. Like think courtyard, I mean patio, is not really doing it. I think courtyard, I mean patio, is not really doing it. If I could, I would have, you know, a huge green space with big like pergola, you know, fan up top, you know nice lounging area, big swing, with like a garden and a fountain, and that's kind of what I imagine, my dream house, I think the house itself. I'm pretty fine with a cute old cottage, I mean, if the outdoor space is on point.

Speaker 2:

Nice, interesting, interesting. Yeah, I have to admit, I'm an outdoorsy person myself, so that sounds pretty appealing. Well, tyler, thank you again so much for joining me today and listeners. If you want to connect with Tyler, you can follow his Instagram, which is provided in the link in our description, and to learn more about Olivet's entrepreneurship program, you can visit Olivetedu slash entrepreneurship. And, of course, to learn more about the Creator Conference and Pitch Competition, you can email me, carly Bird at kabird at Olivetedu, or visit our website, creatorolivetedu, where faith and business meet. This is the Creator Podcast. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time.